Capital Punishment Dilemma

servant Joseph · On-Fire Member

Capital Punishment Dilemma

Date: Fri Oct 15 11:27 AM, 2004

You guys are sooo wrong on this one. Capital punishment is bad! For many reasons:

1) States with captial punishment have higher murder and serious crime rates than do states without

but you may argue, maybe this is due to differences within the state itself...

2) States that had the capital punishment and then abolished it found a downward trend of murder and serious crime suggesting that removing capital punishment lowers these rates

reason: If the state sanctions capital punishment, eg: eye for an eye, it gives ppl the idea that if the state can play god than why not us? Many many many psych studies have been conducted and have shown this to be the case. Capital punishment encourages rather than deters violent crimes- criminals don't think of consequences (duh) but if there is capital punishment, it makes it seem more ok to commit terrible crimes. Weird heh?

3) Capital punishment does not do anythign to deter serious crimes!!!! It encourages it!!!!

4) Capital punishment is EXPENSIVE

This is counter intuitive, we would think just killing someone would be cheaper than keeping them alive, and frankly I don't know either way, but I do know that it is very expensive to put to death criminals- legally and otherwise.

5) Conclusion: capital punishment is BAD for society because it allows ppl to think that if the state sanctions violence, then why can't they do the same. Also it's expensive on the infrastructure, and although I dont' find it a cruel punishment for rapists and murderers, just because it encourages serious crime, it's obviously a bad thing. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!!! I used to be a proponent of capital punishment as well, thinking the eye for eye tooth for tooth argument, and I used to think it would deter crimes. I was wrong, and have read and studied this since grade 4!!! Please reconsider your posts, you guys are wrong to come to this conclusion, as a christian and as a RESPONSIBLE member of society (like christians are supposed to be). James out.

servant Joseph · On-Fire Member

Dear James,

After a couple days of thinking, I finally got an answer to your post hope it helps

Before going on, let's clarify one point.

Moral dilemmas like

abortion

euthanasia

capital punishment

vegetarianism

homosexuality

how to live a good life

meaning of life

definition of justice

definition of human rights

...

are not questions that can be answered by humans, in terms of philosophy, psychology, sociology. We can't answer them by philosophical reasons, social reasons, psychological reasons, utilitarianism reasons...

We can never answer them by our own!

For example, throughout history, there is never a universal consensus on all of the above issues, say the meaning of life.

Where are our answers then?

The answer is from God!

Therefore, in order to get an answer, we need to believe God is God first!

We Christians believe we should do capital punishment because God commands us to! *remember what I talked in the first post, the OT(old testament) doesn't contradict the NT(new testament), they are in harmony*

*Matthew 5:17,18- Do not think that I (Jesus) have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets (OT); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

We might not understand the reasons, for example, you said psychological research have shown that capital punishment increases murder rate. (though I am inclined to think that there are many other reasons e.g. lack of moral education that leads to high murder rate in the States ) However, we can simply believe in God and follow his guidance

Let me give another example on vegetarianism:

In the past, I always thought killing a cute sheep to eat lamb is a cruel thing! Even today, I still do not understand why. (they taste great!) But I decide to follow God's advice (God told us we can eat it as we like!) as God must intend the best for us.

Genesis 9:3- Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything

Luke 24:42-43, "And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." (Jesus ate meat too!)

1 Tim 4:1-4 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:"

What I do not like about secular moral philosophy (I used to have passion in it!) is that there is no ultimate standard (God's guidance), so people keep on arguing virtually til forever with all kinds of "convincing" arguments.

hope it helps

Cheers

Joe

Date: Mon Oct 18 10:55 AM, 2004

sorry Joe... I remain unconvinced. The passages you put in there somewhat go with your argument... and somewhat don't have much to do with it (except the vegetarian argument- that's a good one... but I don't think you'll convince vegetarians to eat meat- although I know that's not the point). Anyways I freely admit you would know much much more about the bible and the scriptures and things like this. Why even the other day someone asked me about judas, because there's a horse used for gathering other horses called the judas horse (it was on tv). Anyways I explained the story in uber-simple terms... They asked for more details clearly interested and I had to say I didn't know it well enough myself. There see, I have no problem admitting that I wouldn't know these things. BUT it has come to my attention by many ppl. that the bible is somewhat open to interpretation. I am sure I am wrong, but I ahve never seen the old and new testament to be in complete harmony (only somewhat). There are changes after that... Anyway I still think that although you are right- for most (perhaps all!) of the questions you listed up there, we can't answer them- only god can. But how you interpret the bible will give you that answer. And even so, I think that science and religion are in harmony (crazy eh?), soooo to some extent WE can answer aspects of these questions. And it is my opinion that capital punishment is wrong because it harms society (NOTE: not because it is morally wrong! I am not making any kind of moral argument for or against!). Why is a murderer a criminal? Why is it a crime to avoid paying taxes? Because these things harm SOCIETY! So, I think the perogative is to look at society, and the truth in the bible should back this up. Therefore I guess I'm saying that I dont' think you are interpreting the bible perhaps as it was meant to be (well I'm not saying it, I'm suggesting it how's that?). I have a friend who says the bible gives all the necessary truths in it for directions to find the biggest gold bust in history and he's currently scouring the upper earth for this gold. Obviously the bible doesn't purport to let us find richs... but he's interpreted it this way. See my point?

jane · On-Fire Member

Hi all,

Captial punishment is indeed a very interesting topic and I'd to give some of my thoughts here.

Hey james, first of all, I completley agree with u that science and religion are in harmony. In fact, I believe that science exists to proves religion. But anyways, that's another topic...

Now back to the capital punishment dilemma, u mentioned that the bible is open to interpretation and only god can interpretate it 100% correctly. I also completely agree with that, but here, the answer to the issue of captial punishment is so clearly answered in the bible that it is evidently god's will that we should keep the capital punishment going.

In the OT, captial punishment was carried out all the time. Especially as mentioned in Deutorony, a person is subjected to capital punishment whenever he did something bad. Pretty scary i'd say

As Joe mentioned several time, Jesus came in the NT and said in Matthew 5:17,18 " Do not think that I (Jesus) have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets (OT); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Therefore, it is clear that the OT is not outdated but is still in effect! THis means that capital punishment should still be carried out!

Fast forward to today, now, let's not look at the moral and Christian perspective of this problem for a sec , but some reasons to why I believe capital punishment is just,

1. Cost

Once a convicted murder is executed and buried, there are no further maintenance costs to the state. I know that the fact that it costs a lot to the state to fund appeals by convicted murderers, but it costs alot to fund their food, daily necessaityies, prison pragroms, prsion guides ...... for the rest of the criminals' lives!!! One more thing, if we follow the biblical principle where two eyewitnesses are necessaryand sufficient for capital punishment, our society wouldn't have to pay so much for capital punishment. We actually don't need so much technology, DNA samples, fingerprints, or video tapes as a "witness" to consider who is to be excussed by capital punishment. It might be over-simplifided, but then, we might have complicaited the process.

2. Safety

Yes James, capital punishment might not have much deterrant effect but in my opionon, even if we killed a murdere without deterranting other criminals, we still have killed a murder. Once a convicted murderer is executed, there is no chance that he will break out of jail and kill or injure another person.

Now please allow me to state some moral reasons for capital punishment,

1. Scripture

Some people may say that the OT is no longer releveant, we do not have to follow the legal codes from the hebrew scriptures today because we live in a totally different time and place. If we say that we could cancel the captial punishment, we could might as well say that we should discard all the laws mentioned in the OT. These might very well include problems such as homosexuality, stealing, blasphemy, worshiping other gods etc... this to me, as a Christian, is unacceptable....

2. the example of jesus

THis is simlar to joe's point. Though Jesus's had taught us the importance of forgiveness, this does not mean god has forgiven the crimminals. We =/= God.
That person has to deal personally with god and seek his forgiveness. So althogh we should forgive him, the criminals should still should carry his respobsiblity to God by having capital punishment done onto him by us.

3. playing god

we are not playing god when we kill a person before his natural death. If so, are we thrawfing god's will when we cut our hair because this act interfeers with its natural growth?

4. value of human life

Some say that human have intristic value that it cannot be taken away by another person. However, the criminal has violated the value of another intristic human life, the state as a whole should has the authority to practice justice upon him!

Well, I might have misinterrupted the bible millions of time. But through the bible, capital punishment , to me, is clearly god's way to promote justice and ensure the safetly of the society.

Thx for reading

god bless,
jane

-- Edited by jane at 19:00, 2004-10-18

disciple · New Member

Two concise articles on capital punishment from STR are at:

http://www.str.org/free/studies/capipuni.htm and

http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/social_issues/reasonsf.htm

A way of summarising the content of those articles:

God established capital punishment, and both Testaments give it legitimacy in society. It is an appropriate penalty for murder, due to the severity of the crime - destroying an innocent person made in God's image.

People have free-will, which makes them morally responsible for their actions. Rehabilitation is like fixing a broken machine after it malfunctions. Rehabilitation alone (without punishment) is not a sufficient response to a crime, because it does not deliver justice for moral culpability as only punishment does. So when capital punishment is carried out on the guilty, it is effective every single time because the guilty person is punished by death for their crime.

Whether or not capital punishment deters other people from doing capital crimes in the future is a non-issue where the guilty (who have already offended) are concerned. It's secondary.

Governments are appointed by God to punish the guilty. Where an offense has been committed, the state is the intrument used to deliver an appropriate punishment, instead of people taking the law into their own hands. The state is supposed to represent society and defend society's interests. This is horizontal sin - people sinning against other people - as opposed to vertical sin - where people sin against God. (If the state fails in justice, no worries, because all people must still pass through a judgement in front of God.)

Jesus talked about forgiveness, so some say capital punishment must be against Jesus's wishes since it is instituting punishment. In that case, all punishment, no matter how small, must also be against Jesus's wishes (according to that view). What's missing is that forgiveness comes to the repentant only.

Any other thoughts?

servant Joseph · On-Fire Member

I'd like to reiterate a key point of this whole discussion. If we do not accept God's authority, the whole capital punishment discussion will become totally meaningless and vain. History has repeatedly shown us and all philosphers (if they choose to admit) that it's impossible to find an universal consensus by ourselves.

Hey Mark, thanks for your wonderful post, you make everything clear out.

-- Edited by servant Joseph at 07:54, 2004-10-21

Jimi G · New Member

I still am unconvinced, and I think Joe, you mean: 'if we DO accept god's authority.' I'm not questioning god's authority however.

Jane: Some very lucid arguments, you almost had me, and certainly do have me thinking... I'm still unsure that we wouldn't be playing god by commiting capital punishment... judge not and be not judged perhaps... And I think your argument on safety is null and void due to the fact that although yes you do get rid of one murderer (convicted murderer anyways-our legal system isn't fail safe), you create effectively a few more. Murder rates go UP- safety goes DOWN. Aside from these points, very well done.

Disciple: I'm glad you summarized! I agree with a few things that you say but.... I don't believe that whether or not capital punishment deters ppl is a none issue. It makes more murder's and murderers!! This INCREASES the problem!!! Don't you believe in reformative justice? Do you truly believe that a murderer cannot be reformed? Of course, some can, and some cannot. But this does blow a hole in your argument. As well, GVMTs were not appointed by god (where the hell did you get this idea???????????? Bush??? Iraq??? Hitler???? MAny other examples available!! This has got to be the most out to lunch thing I have ever heard) and although the state is the instrument of punishment- this can lead with innapropriate use of force (ie: capital punishment) for ppl to take things into their own hands and in this way the state would not be protecting the ppl's interests now would it? Your last paragraph makes sense, but maybe some murderers do repent... what have you to say to that? Actaully don't worry about it I think it's a non issue...

Jimi G · New Member

as well in the old testament the jews were gods chosen ppl., your argument could say hitler was a god appointed ruler- are you anti-semitic?

servant Joseph · On-Fire Member

1.

"I still am unconvinced, and I think Joe, you mean: 'if we DO accept god's authority.' I'm not questioning god's authority however." (by James)

Obviously, there's a contradiction here, coz

If we do accept God's authority, we will obey his commands.

If we obey God's commands, we will act out the commands according to God's instruction.

God's command is that for all who murders (kill unjustly + intentionally), he must receive death penalty. (also, God says v. clearly that those will kill unintentionally (accidentally) remains innocent without punishemnt). In here, it's clear that there are just 2 situations- intentionally & unintentionally. God hasn't said anything about how violent is the murder or stuff like that.

(here, my purpose is not to say anything for or against Captial punishment. I just wanna clear out a contradiction which might confuse our discussions)

2.

hey James, in all our previous posts, they're all reasons/arugments against Capital Punishment. It's your turn now

Obviously, you have a strong case for Capital Punishment. Would you mind stating out all your reasons in the next post? As this forum is created for "a search for the truth". Your argument is very essential too.

O God, I really give thanks to you that you love us all so so much & that we have a great sharing here. God, guide us all to know your truth more & walk in your ways. Your ways to prosper, to a meaningful life, to love unconditionally & encourage each other. Thanks God, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, we pray humbly, Amen.

Jimi G · New Member

I have no further argument, I think my first one still stands and according to your INTERPRETATION of the bible you believe that it's gods will for capital punishment. I beleive you are interpreting wrong and that god has no such intentions. I will stick to this for now, and if I talk to other relious authorities and change my mind I will for sure say so here and state the arguments why. Cheers!

servant Joseph · On-Fire Member

Thanks v. much James.

I believe yours is a strong case as God's command should make sense. (not always but at least most of the time) In the meantime, I will look into the "Capital Punishment encourages serious crime" issue, research to see if there is new findings. (as new studies often refine old studies). But the "Capital Punishment is expensive" issue, I might just leave it coz ethics is not a case of "cost & benefits". (if it is, many multi national corporations will be highly moral rather than being sweatshops exploiting the poor)

In addition, the goal of Science is falsification (disproving), instead of proving. Science's nature is induction. Therefore, in a humble sense, Science can't really prove a thing, but only temporarily declares something to be something. (true for today, maybe not for tomorrow) e.g. in the past, Newton's theory is true for some time, then contradicted & renewed by Einstein's relativity. But we can't say Einsteing's relativity is the truth. We can just say, up to this moment we can't find other evidence to contradict & renew Einstein's theory. Who knows tomorrow?

In the above case, it's about Physics-study of matter. However, in social psychology, the case is even more unpredictable as humans are way more complex than matter.

Now, let's pray to God as God has promised that he will give us wisdom if we ask him. Pray that we will know God's perfect plan more. Amen